Debate- Mirza is sexist, R2

I would like to thank my opponent for his swift reply, and also apologize that my argument couldn't fit within 8,000 characters.
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Refutations
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"First and foremost, I am neither sexist nor do I use my religion as a shield for my alleged sexism."

If you accept my definitions of sexism then treating or expecting one thing from either gender on sexist. To not be sexist you must allow each person to choose how to live his or her life without sex being a [large] factor.

" Why would I use my religion as my shield?"

So people wont think of you as sexist so much as see it in your religion; they would become less angry at you, and more towards your religion.

" My religion is the most misunderstood in the world, and is attacked horribly in the media and from various people who have managed to write numerous deceitful books in order to wreck the good image of Islam."

Strawman.

" If I were to use anything as a shield for my "sexism," that would never be Islam."

Now why would that be?

"It only makes it worse for myself to use Islam as my "shield" for sexism because I will be confronted with far more opposition than if I merely used something else as my "shield.""

Oh no, not at all. You see if you use Islam its just surrenduring yourself over to a belief system, it may not be how you actually feel, just how you were taught is proper to feel, and how you have adapted to fit in with a religion you have been taught was correct, either from parents, religious leaders, holy text or anything else that may shape how you feel and act.

"If I were an atheist, people would take it less seriously."

Because atheism isn't a belief system. Its not organized, and its not a threat. Any religion or church that is sexist, racist, homophobic etc, is far more of a threat then an atheist group. Westboro Baptist Church, is more of a threat than any atheist group, whether they are against women, gays, or just anti-theist. Atheists are not organized, and as such they are rarely taken seriously, as a threat.

" I can use many other things as shields for my alleged sexism than Islam, because the religion is neither sexist, nor is it wise to use such a targeted religion to protect yourself from attacks."

Not sexist? I was recently shown this, about Islamic marriage/women's roles
[1], care to explain how that is not sexist?
Then of course
[2]
[3]
There are plenty of others that contradict my opponent's claims that the Qur'an is not sexist.

"As a matter of fact, whenever someone offends my religion, he offends me. I respect disagreement, but calling my religion sexist is the same as calling me sexist."
By agreeing with that religion you would be correct in saying if it is sexist you are as well.

" I take it the same way, and maybe even more seriously, because my religion cannot change, but I can."
You can "change" religions, or maybe Islam will grow up much like Judiasm has. Personally I respect Judiasm nore than Islam because it has grown up in the past 5,ooo years. You can't just say it will not change. You may hope, you may disagree that it should, you may think it is unlikely, but nothing is black and white.

" Therefore, there is absolutely no wisdom behind using Islam as a shield for my supposed sexism. I choose to adhere to this religion because I find truth in it, and not because I find wisdom in hiding behind it, because there are no benefits from that."

I'm sorry if you misunderstood me, however I never meant to say you chose Islam because you are sexist and want to hide behind that, almost any religion would be just fine claiming it is better to be sexist than not. Judiasm and Christianity could both be used to defend a sexist point of view, or could be used to shape it, for example.

"Moving on, I do not deny that I believe in different roles of the genders."

Which in itself is sexist, just thought I should point that out.

" I believe that they are as equal as possible in terms of their qualities."

Now, what exactly do you mean by that?

" The female is superior to the male in some aspects, and vice versa."

Assuming this answers my above question, if they are superior simply because of their sex, its sexist. I do not deny that different people are better than others at some things, and the best thing in a relationship is to find balance. Each person has their place, and the best you can do is be in a balanced relationship. That does not mean that women must be emotional and able to care for children, and it does not mean that men have to be physically strong. It means no matter what the type of relationship it is, it should be balanced. In a same sex couple you don't want two men competing for who is stronger, you want them to compliment each other. You don't want women fighting over who can best care for children, you want their skills balanced. What one is good at, is not defined by their gender, however statistically speaking females are more emotional, and men are more tough, that however is no basis for a moral guideline on what to demand of each gender. I would much rather have a man who is more capable, care for my child then myself.

"How can this be a sexist claim?"
Assigning roles to genders instead of one's actual capabilities.

" It is nonsense. Telling someone that he is sexist because he differentiates equally between the sexes, even though is is fully compatible with modern scientific research, is terrible."
No its not. No scientific research says that all women care for children better than men, and that all men can do physical work better than women.

" You will realize that psychologists, psychiatrists, doctors, etcetera, they all treat their patients differently, hereby by differentiating between the genders."
Only in cases that it matters. Just because its not common doesn't mean it doesn't need taken into consideration, I am of course talking about men with breast cancer
[4]
It is rare, but it shouldn't be pushed aside because its mostly with only one sex, statistically speaking less than 1% seems small, but when you see the numbers, you will know, nothing should be ignored.
" 1,970 men will be diagnosed, and 390 will die from the disease in
the U.S. in 2010."

" For instance, what kind of an idiotic health care system would give birth control to men for free?"
Any place that gives away free condoms I would hope.

" Is this logical? No, it is horrendous."
How so?

" Such a system gives what fits to you, and birth control pills are not for men whatsoever (nor for male transsexuals, thank you very much)."
However that isn't my point. Gender roles and reproductive (sex) differences are not the same thing.

" Therefore, there is nothing wrong with treating the genders differently, but justly."
Only in medical reproductive treatments.

" Women should not be treated better nor worse than men, and vice versa."
Exactly.

" Different treatment of genders is not sexism."
I disagree. Gender roles is a horrible outdated concept. It should always be based on one's ability rather than on one's gender, even if the capability most often correlates a certain way. I wouldn't want to ignore a sign of breast cancer just because its a male that has the signs, that would be an abomination, much like demanding people act according to their gender rather than what they are capable of.

"Sexism is, in fact, treating one gender "better" than the other, or being in possession of the view that one gender is superior to the other in general terms."
That is one definition, but there are a myriad of different forms of sexism, including "attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles. "
Then there are men who think womenare less capable of caring for themselves, and women who believe that men have to be strong, anything that assigns gender roles is sexist.
"I have never made such a claim. In fact, I have defended and will defend the good values of women."

I understand that you are not like JimProfit, but as I said, there are different types of sexism.

" I think that women are to be respected and obeyed as parents more than men, they should be treated more kindly than men, and so forth."
But not respected and obeyed as people, and treated differently than men and so forth, I understand, they only have rights and authority as parents in your eyes, and are weaker, and need to be treated differently, even treating them more kindly is sexist, judge on actions, not gender, to fail that is to be sexist.

" However, on the other side I think that men should be more respected when it comes to some other things, such as working."
Once again, why should gender matter, if this isn't sexist?

" I believe that males should do hard physical work, not females."
I believe everyone should choose which work is best for them, and what they would rather do, not have their genders define it. To have genders define it, is in fact sexist.

"I think that a male who sits at home and washes clothes, while his wife is outside in a cold, rainy weather and doing hard work, is something outrageous, except if necessary."
Really? I think the same thing of women who stay at home and do nothing but laundry while people they care about are alone and cold. If he's working on the roof, she should help him, and vice versa.

"The man has more physical strength, and therefore he is entitled to hard work."
In some cases, to say that is how things should be is to be sexist.
"The mother is more gentle and emotional, and she is more capable of raising the children and do work which does not ruin her."
Sometimes, not always the case. To argue that that is how it should be, is to be sexist.

"This way, both the male and the female are treated equally and justly. What is wrong with this? Nothing.""
False, that way you dictate how people should spend their lives based on genitalia rather than on capability.


"Furthermore, I am not saying "all" for any gender"
So you would support a women working construction and her husband stays home with the children and cleans up? That somewhat contradicts what you said in your cold rainy scenario.

"I am generalizing because there is nothing wrong with that in this context. "
There is plenty wrong in that context if you are arguing against being sexist.

"However, when it comes to something like hard physical work, there is no doubt that males - in general - are far more capable of doing it than females are."

In general sure, but should we treat everyone based on the majority of the time vs the reality of the situation?

" This is not about "all" but "most.""
So people may choose what they prefer under your system?
"Women, however, are better when it comes to emotions; they are better at expressing love and kindness than males."
In some cases.

"It is very important for children to be raised under a loving and caring environment, which is why I strongly advocate that parents spend the time necessary to raise their children properly."
I agree with this.

"In order to have a well-functioning system for this, at least one parent should spend the time with children."
Okay.

"In Finland, for instance, this is one of the reasons why the children are doing very well with education. After the mother gives birth, she spends quite a lot of time raising the child and disciplining him properly, but the father works."
After looking into it I agree that it is a good system; much better than the U.S, however the father took three weeks off work after the first child was born, the mother five weeks before and 16 months later. Instead of time off for the second child she opted for more money. Their children are in day care and the husband is retired, and taking classes, the mother is working, the oldest child is six years old. I fail to see your point.
[5]

"As can clearly be seen, both sexes have equal advantages and disadvantages. There is no doubt that treating them differently, but justly, is necessary."

Only where it is necessary. Women are less likely to have skin cancer, does that mean the risk should be ignored?
"Just because I do it "morally" does not mean that I do it wrongly."
What do you mean by that?

"Do you call a doctor sexist for refusing to treat a male who claims to have menstrual pain, while he does treat a woman who makes the same claim?"
If he's having pain it should be checked out. A better example is if he claims to believe he has breast cancer but is ignored, I would say the doctor was being sexist.

"Is this sexist? Not the least. It is natural to differentiate between the sexes, and I do that."
But you do it with things that shouldn't be differentiated between. You admitted that not all men are a certain way, and same with women, so the best course of action is to not limit what either gender may do. If a man is more skilled at carrying heavy objects than a women, having him do that would not be sexist; however if she was better and someone had him do it instead just because of typical gender roles, it is sexist.
I believe in equal opportunity, and to deny on basis of race is racism, sex is sexism, etc.

"However, I have never valued one more than the other in general terms. I believe - and so does science - that women are better at handling things through emotions (such as dealing with children), while men are better at handling hard physical work."
As a typical rule, but you still have to let each person "prove" themselves; you can't judge purely by sex.

"While not "all" of each gender are this way, it does not matter; it is about general terms."
Not really. Generally men will not get breast cancer, but ignoring the risk sends 1,000 men to the coffin a year, in the U.S alone.

"That is how a moral system works."
I never argued that; in fact that was the point I was trying to make.

" If you say that that the old woman has such and such a right, and the young woman has such and such a right, then we will have many problems."
What? Old women have the right to vote, young women do not. There isn't too much of a problem with that. I also fail to see how it has to do with anything.
"What is young? What is old? Is young being 55? Is old being 60?"
For the purpose of voting rights young is under 18 years of age, and old is 18 years of age and older.

"It would wreck a moral system. Therefore, it is better to speak in general terms."
No. For example in every moral system I have heard, killing is wrong. However in every moral system I have heard of, especially religiously based, exceptions are made. You cannot deny that there is that exception in Islam. There is a general guide but it serves no real purpose. Why should something trivial like gender roles be more enforced than something as grave as murder? Doesn't sound like a well thought out moral system to me.

"However, I am not saying that women should not work. I never said this. I think that a woman should be very respected for being a teacher, doctor, etc. It helps a society and that is a good thing."
Of course, the more work that is being done, the better.
But I think that the primary role of the woman should be to do work related to the home and the children, while the man should earn money and spend it on his wife and their children."
And that is exactly what is sexist about this moral system shared by you, and your religion. Its antecedal I know, but I would trust my boyfriend more with cooking and caring for children then myself. He is a much better cook (doesn't start a fire every time he tries to make something, and actually knows how to make eggs), and more understanding of little kids than I am. Why should I be stuck doing something I hate, and am no good at, when he is much more capable, and would enjoy it much more?

"That is to help reducing the risks of:

1. Divorce
2. Disputes over parental roles"
I doubt that. If anyone tried to make me stay at the house with kids, and cleaning, and cooking, everyday all day, I would flip out, and leave, end of story. It clearly does not work for everyone.
Of course that is just how things are for me, but I doubt I'm all that unique.

"What do couples nowadays fight over?"
Mostly over being ignored, suspected cheating, different opinions, really things that could be avoided if they would find balance before getting overly serious.

" They fight over whose income is spent most, who has raised children in such a bad way, who had responsibility for work, who had responsibility over the house, who should take care of the children, who should work, and so forth."
I have never seen that. Closest I've seen was different opinions on discipline, whether the budget actually mattered, and whether overtime was needed in order to not be homeless.

"This has lots of negative impacts on our societies. We see divorce rates exploding, mistreatment of spouses, and so forth."
Yes, people need to know who it is they are with and how they work together the best before engaging in sexual activity that may cause pregnancy, or being married.

" Is this what a society needs? No. When the couples have a moral system to follow, they will not fight over things which can be avoided."
So the moral system must be black and white sexist gender roles?

"For instance, if both spouses follow the Islamic marital system, they will hardly fight over who is responsible for income, who is responsible for raising children, and so forth. Why?"
Because Islamic wives have no right and can be beaten by her husband for speaking out of turn or disagreeing so he can have/do whatever he wants.

"Because if they follow the system, there will be no disputes over such things."
But then you ignore the fact that that sometimes is not the best way.


"Moreover, I never said that "It is my religion to think this way." I agree with my religion, which is why I follow it."
I understand that; however you back up your claims with your religion because it shares your point of view.

"Lastly, Islam is not sexist, nor has it ever been sexist. It is a religion which treats both genders justly, and always favors each in specific ways. Thank you."
[1]
[2]
[3]


[Qur'an 16:97] "Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions."
"As for equality, (often touted by ignorant Islamic females) there is no such thing: one Hadith (cited Azad, 1995. p. 166), says “even if the husband is a leper and the wife cleans the pus of his wounds with her tongue and swallows the pus, still she is not equal to her husband”"
[1]


[Qur'an 31:14] "And We have enjoined on man (to be good) to his parents: in travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning..." "
Again, wives have no rights to be themselves, or make their own choices, its nice that at least children must respect her.[6]

Sources-
[1] http://sheikyermami.com/2010/11/12/muslim-marriage
[2] http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Holy%20Books/Koran/koran2.htm
[3] http://infidelsarecool.com/2008/01/11/top-10-quran-quotes-every-woman-must-see/
[4] http://ww5.komen.org/uploadedfiles/Content_Binaries/806-320a.pdf
[5] http://finland.fi/public/default.aspx?contentid=160100&contentlan=2&culture=en-US
[6]http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/women_in_islam4.htm